Mastering the Craft of Storytelling with Special Guest Lisa Cron

Episode Summary

Unlocking the Secrets of Character-Driven Stories

In this episode of "Inkwell Insights," I had the privilege of diving deep into the craft of storytelling with the incredible Lisa Cron. Known for her insightful books like "Story Genius" and "Wired for Story," Lisa shares a treasure trove of knowledge about the intrinsic nature of storytelling and its profound impact on readers. Whether you're a seasoned writer or just beginning your creative journey, our conversation offers invaluable takeaways on crafting narratives that resonate on a deeper emotional level.

The Power of Backstory

One of the key highlights of our discussion revolved around the concept of backstory. Too often dismissed or underutilized, Lisa argues that backstory forms the backbone of any compelling narrative. Many writers might mistakenly believe that plot takes precedence, but the truth is, the essence of any great story lies in what has come before. As Lisa eloquently put it, backstory isn't just about filling in gaps; it’s about understanding what drives your characters at their core.

Take Celeste Ng's "Everything I Never Told You," which Lisa recommended during our chat. The book delves into the intricate layers of character history, weaving backstory seamlessly into the present narrative to reveal motivations, fears, and desires. This effective use of backstory makes for a riveting read because we, as readers, get to experience the characters' inner worlds.

Internal Journeys Over External Events

Lisa and I also explored the concept of internal journeys versus external events. The heart of storytelling lies not in the grandiose moments but in how characters evolve internally. Even seemingly small incidents, like a missed phone call, can carry immense weight if they connect to the character's personal stakes. This nuanced understanding of storytelling is perhaps most evident in films like "Citizen Kane," where the protagonist's internal transformation, driven by past experiences, is the linchpin of the narrative.

Reflecting on my own experiences as a writer, I shared how understanding internal motivations has helped me create more compelling characters, particularly in the realm of speculative fiction. High stakes and dramatic twists are only effective if they resonate on a deeper, emotional level, rooted in characters' pasts and their internal conflicts.

The Art of Present Experience

Lisa stressed the importance of writing from the characters' current experiences rather than retrospectively framing events. This helps maintain immediacy and emotional truth, essential elements for engaging storytelling. Whether it’s through the saga of "Harry Potter" or the psychological tension in "Sharp Objects," understanding characters' experiences in the now, influenced by their backstory, is crucial for a cohesive narrative.

She critiqued the notion that characters are fully rational beings. Instead, our brains are wired with ingrown beliefs and biases formed through early experiences. This wiring impacts how characters react to events, making storytelling an exploration of these deeply rooted aspects of human nature.

Enhancing Writing Education

One of the most compelling parts of our conversation was Lisa's critique of traditional writing education. Many writing courses focus excessively on plot and style, often at the expense of character depth and emotional engagement. Lisa's experiences in publishing and working with writers showed her that the true essence of storytelling lies in making readers feel as though they’re living the story alongside the characters.

Traditional education, she argues, often leads writers astray, causing many to abandon their craft out of frustration. She passionately advocates for a reform in writing education to realign it with what truly captivates readers – the emotional journey of characters.

Writing with Parameters

Lastly, we discussed the importance of having parameters in storytelling. Too much freedom can be paralyzing rather than liberating. Lisa shared an illuminating anecdote about a writer who, upon receiving clear parameters, felt a surge of creativity and productivity. This led us to examine the concept of "pantsing" versus plotting. While the spontaneity of pantsing might seem appealing, especially to new writers, it often leads to narratives that lack cohesion. A structured approach, akin to constructing a building with a clear vision, is essential for creating a meaningful story.

Lisa provided an analogy from "Mad Men," where Don Draper criticizes his team for having "a lot of bricks but no building." This perfectly encapsulates the need for a cohesive structure in storytelling. Parameters don’t stifle creativity; they channel it, providing the scaffolding for truly engaging narratives.

Join the Conversation

I encourage you to dive deeper into these concepts and join our vibrant writing community at Howdy Curiosity. Fostering a space for writers to collaborate, share experiences, and grow together is key to mastering the craft of storytelling. Don’t forget to check out Lisa Cron’s books and her website, wiredforstory.com, for more insights into the art of narrative.

This episode was a journey through the intricate layers of storytelling, offering practical advice and profound insights that can transform your writing. Until next time, keep crafting those stories that truly speak to the heart of human experience.

Episode Transcript

Heads up! Transcripts are automatically generated and may contain errors.

Blake Reichenbach:
Oh, hey, everybody. It's that bodice ripping romance that you read for the plot. Blake Reichenbach. I'm your host of the Inkwell Insights podcast. And today we are back with a pretty special treat. For the last couple of episodes, we have been talking about Lisa Kron's story Genius, how to use Brain Science to go beyond outlining and write a riveting novel. And today I'm going to be sharing an interview that I did a few weeks ago with Lisa. It is so insightful. Honestly, I had a blast doing it. I was cracking up. I knew from reading Story of Genius that Lisa was going to be a hoot, but I was not expecting what we got. You'll have to listen in and check it out to see what I mean. I do want to give a quick heads up that I was on the road when we met to speak and I was so excited to speak with her. I didn't want to reschedule, I didn't want to delay. So I decided to go ahead, record the interview without my usual podcasting setup. So the sound quality is going to be a bit lower than usual for the interview, but there's still so much good, juicy content in this conversation with Lisa Kron. Oh my gosh. We cover so much. Her origins of how she got into story, her work with writers, and how she has seen people evolve. One of my favorite topics, which is balancing having that really rewarding creative life against having a day job and kids and being a caretaker and all the things that go with that really tedious, delicate balancing act. There's even a comment which quite timely given the time of year that we are publishing this episode. Even a comment about wanting to punch the creator of NaNoWriMo in the throat. Let's go ahead, listen to Ms. Lisa Crawd. This is so good. You're going to love it. I'll be back at the end to wrap us up.

Blake Reichenbach:
Lisa, thank you so much for being here with me today. I am so excited to chat with you about Story.

Lisa Cron:
Oh, it's my utter pleasure. There is nothing I love more than talking story.

Blake Reichenbach:
You know, I kind of guessed that because at this point you have written three books all about the science and function of story, Wired for Story, Story Genius and Story or Die. And on your website you write, and I love this quote. An effective story, it turns out, enters through your gut, looks out through your eyes, and is never really analyzed by your conscious brain. That's the hardwired power of story. Understanding that power allows you to both wield it and as Important to gird yourself against it if need be. That is powerful.

Lisa Cron:
Thank you. And I would say in the world that we're in now, which is different than when I wrote it, we need that skill more than we've ever needed meaning, understanding the power of story on us. As I'm fond of saying, people, we are all affected by stories every minute of every day, whether we know it or not, and 99% of the time, we don't know it. So it really pays to understand both the power and why story has the power that it does if you want to create one. And, of course, you know, if you want to live out here in the world and not suddenly find yourself sucked into something that later on you're going to go, how could I have ever believed that? That's the power of story.

Blake Reichenbach:
I love that so much. And, you know, I think about some of the people, let's say, in my circle, who I see on Facebook or Twitter, who will see something and just believe it immediately without any semblance of credibility. And it's that compelling factor of story that will make it just so. Like, let me latch onto this and run with it.

Lisa Cron:
Yeah, it's the compelling. And it's also on that level with people, it's that it's hooked up to some need that they've got. It's hooked up to some way that they see the world and they see themselves, and that gives them a sense of power and a sense of being seen. So there are so many things when, you know, there's a difference between writing a novel or memoir or writing a story or coming up with a story like might be on Twitter or as it's now called, X, that's really there to grab someone and pull them in and change how they see things, to move them to action. And that's even scarier because often people creating those stories really do and have done their homework, figuring out why somebody would believe what they want them to believe, why the deeper meaning behind just the surface thing, but what it would mean to them to change or to see things through again, the eyes of the people who are trying to change us or indoctrinate us or radicalize us, and that makes such a difference because nobody listens until they feel heard. And if you make somebody feel heard and you create a story that is going to really validate what they really feel is important, you've got an adherent for life. And that's scary.

Blake Reichenbach:
If that makes sense, it makes total sense. And I think across your work, the theme of the power of story, either for good or evil, really comes through. And I'm super curious. What is your story, story? Where did this fascination or this love of story come from?

Lisa Cron:
Like most of us, I've loved stories since I was tiny. I mean, we all were wired for story. Nobody ever taught us to love stories. I mean, it is literally a human universal. So getting pulled into stories is something I think that we've all had pretty much forever. That's why they're so powerful, because story is wired into the architecture of our brains. We think in story. But for me, I always got carried away and pulled into and realized that I was learning more from the stories that I read, from the novels that I read, from the movies that I watched. I was a. I loved movies from the time I was 12 to about 22. I saw every movie that ever came out. I would go 100 miles to see a movie because they just. And I realized that what was changing me most in my life wasn't what people were saying to me, but was really being in the head of whoever the character was. That's what was shaping me. So I went into publishing. And I think what pulled me into this part of it, though, was much later than that. When I was working for the studios, I was reading books to film. I'd worked as an agent, and I was reading books to film. So I read a lot of. A lot of screenplays, but thousands of manuscripts. And what I realized in reading them was what I'd been taught in school, in college, in any sort of writing class, and any sort of writing book I looked at was not what was pulling me in. That there was completely 100%, not just a little bit wrong, but 180 degrees wrong. That what was. Was pulling me in was something that nobody talked about. And that's what really got me interested in working with writers and writing the books that I wrote. Because I realized, wait a minute, wait a minute. If that's wrong, what is pulling me in? And the reason I had to know that is because my job wasn't just to say, this could make a good movie or this could be published. But I had to tell them why I couldn't just say yes or no, right? Why wasn't it working? And in diving in again, I could see that the reason things didn't work didn't have to do with a rippering plot or how well they were written or having a, you know, love of language. None of that mattered. What mattered was if we could feel what somebody was feeling in the Moment on the page, being engaged, that's what did it for us. And that flew in the face of what everybody else was teaching and saying. And that pulled me into, well, wait a minute, why is that true? And I was super lucky because at that moment, talk about synergy, neuroscience was just burgeoning. And I've always been really interested in, okay, well, what makes us tech, right? That. That great line in the beginning that the newsreel producer says in the beginning of Citizen Kane, Nothing's more interesting than finding out what makes people tech. And that's what story does. It takes us into that arena, especially written word, especially prose, because prose takes us to the one place that, thank God, up until now, we have not had a way to get to. Although Elon Musk has certainly tried trying to change this, which is to know what somebody's actually thinking in the moment. We don't know that yet. That's what stories do. That's what pulls us in. And it is not what's taught by the writing world at all. And that's where, when I started writing my books again, like Wired for Story, I wanted to get all that out. I was reading, actually, an article about neuroscience. They were talking about something Wired, and I went, that's the title. That's what it is. And my goal actually, really is to really undo so much of what's out there in the writing world, because it makes me really angry. And the reason it makes me angry is because I have seen so many writers just get tanked. Their work gets tanked. They end up giving up writing. Sadly, what most of the manuscripts I ever read were, which was nothing but a bunch of things that happened. You know, I mean, at the end of the day, it was so many, 90, maybe more percent of the manuscripts I've read. If you'd asked me, what's it about, I'd go, it's about 300 pages. I have no idea. It's just a bunch of things that happen. And that's heartbreaking because once a writer zeroes in on what a story really is and how to create it, I mean, the difference I've seen between what comes in of this is just what I'm writing. Take a look at. And then after a while, coming back and going, here's this. If I showed you. I think of several writers where. If I showed you what they came in with and what they ended up with, you'd go, you're punking me. I don't believe you. I don't believe that someone who wrote that could now write this. But again, it's because the writing world misleads almost everybody, sadly. So my goal is to change that.

Blake Reichenbach:
Well, I like that you mention the writers coming in with their before production and that after you saying, this doesn't even feel like the same writer. I'm curious, like, what is that before and after transformation? Like when you're looking at someone's manuscript or at their text.

Lisa Cron:
Yeah, I mean, the before is always a bunch of things that happen. We're not. There's no depth. Everything is surface. It's, as I like to say, it's all top down. This would be dramatic. This would be big. I'll show somebody going through whatever it is, but there's no deeper why. There's no why it matters to them. There's no internal struggle. There's no any sort of internal subjective logic. It's just a bunch of things happening. And sometimes they're good at describing things, but you're reading it going, and so why would I care? Why does this matter? We're not pulled in in the way that good stories pull us in, which is biological. I mean, this is biology. It's not like some sort of writing theory or some formula. You can do that. It's liter. What pulls us in has to do with a chemical reaction that we have to things that pull us in. So once somebody has mastered that, and that means a lot of work, doing a lot of things that the writing world tells you not to do. I mean, some of the hardest part of having somebody go from something that isn't working at all to something that is, is they've got to battle the myths that the writing world has out there that makes them feel like to do what really works is bad writing. Don't tell us what you know. I mean, the biggest lie, in my opinion, that the writing world tells, and I say that too many times, so there are many of the biggest lies, but this is the one I always say is the biggest, is that notion of use backstory sparingly. And then when the reader needs to know something, I mean, first of all, you never put something in because the reader needs to know. I mean, not. I'm saying they don't, but you put it in because it's what the character would be struggling with in the moment on the page as they're trying to make whatever tough decision that they need to make scene by scene by scene by scene, in order to make the agenda that they step onto the page with come to fruition. And that's internal backstory is the most seminal and important layer of story. Without backstory, you have no story. You've just got a bunch of things that happen because that is what not just. Again, this isn't like a writing thing. This is biology. In other words, we come in, you, me, everybody. When we're trying to decide what to do, we turn to the past in order to predict the future. The brain is a prediction machine. Without our story specific past, we wouldn't know what to do in any situation. That's what matters most. What a story is actually about is how somebody deals with a problem they can't avoid. And something inside their belief system has to shift in order for them to actually solve it or often see it as something very different than they thought it was and then either solve it or end up giving up. In other words, the narrative through line. Writers will take that to mean something that's plot related and it's not. Narrative through line is the evolving internal subjective logic that is changing, that is evolving scene by scene by scene by scene until they get to the end and have that aha moment. That is what pulls us in. Without that, no matter how quote, unquote well written it is. No matter how many metaphors you've got or lovely luscious language or rib roaring plot, it's just a bunch of things that happen. And that's the difference is now we are in someone's head and it's got what I like to call blood. Sometimes it's literal blood, but blood means we can feel why something matters. And the that feeling. Again, emotion is something. I mean, one of my goals in life is. I have two goals in life. One is to change the way that people see emotion. Because we have been handed a bill of goods about emotion that is just biologically completely incorrect. We make every decision we ever make based on our emotion. If you couldn't feel and process emotion, you couldn't make a single logical decision. That's biology. But emotion doesn't come onto the page. Oh, I said that was my one goal. My second goal is to overturn the patriarchy. So I know, wish me good luck with that. But anyway, I'll probably have a better shot at changing how people see emotion, because we all feel it. But to get emotion onto the page doesn't mean it's not about body language. It's not about, you know, some lovely luscious metaphor for what tears looked like. It's not about their blood ran cold. It's not about telling us she was happy, she was sad, she Was deeply depressed. Emotion comes onto the page in terms of that internal struggle that somebody is going through. You never have to name an emotion. You never have to name heart pounding, palm sweating. It's just that internal struggle. I'll give you a very quick for instance that I'm just going to sort of make up off the top of my head. Like, imagine there's a character and he's, I don't know, 14, and he's coming home and he thinks, oh, my God, I can hear that kitten. Kitten that's been under the house for days. But the meow, it's so faint. And I'm afraid if I don't give milk today, it's going to die. And of course it would have milk, but I don't. Dad had to take the mom and the other kittens, put them in the bag and drown them. Thank God this one kitten survived. But if I take some milk out, mom told me that if the milk goes down again, Dad's going to get angry and he might beat her up again. And if he does that, I mean, the last time she was in bed for a week. And I don't even want to think about what happened to me during that. During that week. But this kitten is just wondering, maybe, maybe, maybe I could take some milk, and if I just put a little bit of water into the bottle, dad won't notice, and then the kitten can survive. I didn't name a single emotion in that little scenario. I didn't say his palms were sweating or his heart was pounding. But you can feel it. And you got story specific backstory, intense story specific backstory as he's trying to make this one simple decision. That's what we come for. We don't come for what happens. We come for why. And the why is always deeply down. And it always, always comes from the past, which is why there's so much work that writers need to do before they get to page one. And of course, that flies in the face of some. So much of the writing lore out there, you know, I mean, if you want to talk about pantsing, we could do that now.

Blake Reichenbach:
Oh, gosh. The pantsing, the muses, the inspiration. Sitting down with that flash of just artistic light upon you.

Lisa Cron:
It's such. Can I swear?

Blake Reichenbach:
Absolutely.

Lisa Cron:
I mean, it's. There is no such thing as the muse. I mean, there's nothing. And to think I could write anything. I'm going to sit down. I mean, utter freedom. We have such a weird relationship with the word freedom. Utter freedom isn't liberating utter freedom is utterly paralyzing. I was talking to a writer the other day where she was trying to come into it, and she said, I'm frozen. I don't know what to do. And I said, yeah, that's because you've got. And she knew a lot about her character, but she just wanted to have this. Well, this is one scene about, you know, just what her life is like in this place with no parameters, with no, well, this is a story that you're creating. So what situation would she be in that's going to build this trajectory up to the beginning? She said, yeah, I'm just lost. Once we built that, it ended up. She went, oh, my God, I'm so inspired now. And, you know, she's. Next time we talk, she will have, you know, have gone in that direction, which she does. She's already proven that she can be a phenomenal writer. But it's sort of like. It reminds me, I just watched for the third time the entire. Every season of Mad Men. If you've ever seen Mad Men. And there's this one, it's great. It's in the second season. And, you know, for those of you who've never seen. It's about, you know, an advertising agency in, like the. Starts in the 50s and then goes through the 60s, and the main character is this guy, Don Draper. And they're trying to win over the advertising of. I think it's like American Airlines. And so the people who work under him have gotten, you know, they've made these mock ups of possible print ads and they're terrible, they're really bad. And they're kind of following him into his office and going, yeah, but what do you think? What do you think? And he turns to them and he says, you got a lot of bricks. I don't know what the building looks like. And that's the point. If you don't have those parameters, if you don't know that, I mean, that's what Pantsing does. It just goes all over the place because there is no there there. It's just a bunch of things that happen. Also, there's so many layers to everything that's pulling us in. But when something is really well written and you're pulled in, you don't see the layers. You see it as like. I think of it as like music that comes at you like a symphony, Right? Like, when you hear a symphony, it's one piece of music. It's all of a piece, but each of the different instruments has different notes that they're playing at the same time that come together to make that, you know, beautiful, you know, piece of music that's waving over you that you're getting lost in the same is true of story. There's so much work that has to be done. Pantsing. I get why people do it, because the writing world says it. And here's something. Just before I even get into that, this is something I used to say. If the writing world, meaning the world that gives advice to writers, was a person, I would punch it in the nose and go to jail happily jail, because everything it says is wrong. And then I realized that wasn't strong enough, so I changed it to, if the writing world was a person, I punch it in the face, like with that kind of emphasis, and go to jail happily. Now, what I say is, you know, the shower scene in Psycho? I would go after the writing world like Norman Bates going after Marion Crane with that big butcher knife because it's just wrong. Pantsing is the dumbest way to do anything. I mean, unless you have such a natural sense of story that somehow some people are brilliant and do that, but even with them. I mean, Stephen King, who talks about writing that way, I mean, some of his stuff is fabulous and some of it is. And I don't even mean this as a joke, but I have tried to read Insomnia so many times, but it puts me to sleep every time because it goes forward and it's like you're waiting for what's going to happen to this guy Ralph with his green shoes. It's like, I don't get where this is. There's no there there. There's nothing to pull us forward. I mean, pantsing is like saying, okay, I'm going to write something about the most important turning point event in somebody's life who I know absolutely nothing about. And now you're pushing them in what they want. You know, what's happened to them in the past, why they are where they are, you know, what things mean to them. You have no way of knowing it. And where are you going? Off a cliff is usually the answer, because you don't know. But you get those. Like, what was it? I think other people have said it, but it was il Doctoro. That notion of, you know, it's like driving a car in the fog, you know, at night, you know, you can't see too far ahead, but you can. It's like, bullshit, Bullshit. It doesn't work that way. That's, again, how many people drive off a cliff when they're Driving in the fog. And that's all they've got.

Blake Reichenbach:
Well, you know, I think one of the things that made story genius really stand out to me and made me want to pick it as our first book club read over at Howdy Curiosity is the fact that I have historically been a pantser, which by the way, we've been throwing around the term pantser. And for anyone watching or listening who's not familiar with that term, it's this idea of sitting down and writing by the seat of your pants, kind of winging it with each writing session. Right. I've historically been a pantser because for me, I viewed my writing as like, this is something that I do when I have free time, or, you know, I'll set aside 30 minutes a day, I'm just going to sit down and write, kind of pick up where I left off, and I have a general idea of where I'm going, just try and move forward. But there have been so many times in my writing, as someone who writes speculative fiction, where the stakes will start getting high. And I'll look at my protagonist and I'll say, boy, what are you doing? You have no reason to get involved in this. You go hide and let the big kids take care of it. And as I was reading Story genius, what I realized is that often, especially in speculative fiction like fantasy and science fiction, when the stakes are high and apocalyptic or, you know, world shattering, sometimes literally, if the protagonist doesn't have a really clear why they should be a involved in the conflict or in the plot at all, then everything else just starts to fall apart. And even if you have these really high stakes or high intensity scenes and plot elements, it's like, but why are you here? Why do I care? Why should I get involved?

Lisa Cron:
Exactly. I mean, and speculative fiction, it surprises me how many people who are. It used to surprise me how many people who want to be first time novelists and they're writing fantasy or. And I'm always thinking like, why are you doing this? You've got to create an entire world with its entire set of rules. It's gotta. We have to understand it. Not because you're telling us in a Wikipedia sort of way, but it has to literally matter. Like why aren't. And I think I've come to believe that part of the reason is because it feels like that would be more dramatic and it feels like more things would happen. And it's scary to write something about, you know, what might happen to the person next door tomorrow. But here's the thing. And this is a mistake that writers make, whether they're writing about what might happen to the person next door tomorrow or some, you know, creating a series of worlds and planets. And you know, not that they can't, because several people, I can think of three people right now that I'm working with who are writing speculative fiction and it's with all of them. If you saw what they came in with and what they're doing now, you would not believe me. And what they're doing now, I only say it because it is so incredibly good compared to what there was at the beginning. But a big problem that writers have is that they think that what's going to pull someone in is something big, giant, what I like to call objectively dramatic. If it's objective, it's not dramatic. A phone call not coming at the right time can be more dramatic than, you know, meteor falling in downtown Cleveland. But it's because of, again, I don't, I never blame writers. I, it is never the writer's fault. It is the writing world. The writing world says there's a grab bag of dramatic things that you can have happen that will make them have to really react in some big way. Now those dramatic things have nothing to do with anything other than it's going to force them to show that they have compassion or that they're, now they're going to deal with whatever fear they've got. But there it doesn't come. Bottom up story is bottom up, not top down. Top down is this external generic grab bag of big dramatic things that ironically end up not being dramatic at all because nobody cares. Exactly. Like what you're saying. There's no skin in the game. What difference does it make? Because at the end of the day it's like, and I often use that again, it's easy to use movies than books because more people have seen the same movies and read the same books. And this used to be called the best movie of all time. And I'm sure a lot of people don't even know what it is. I mentioned it before, Citizen Kane. But the whole point of Citizen Kane is here's this guy who's rich, all this stuff has happened to him and he's died. But like his dying word is rosebud, right? So like, what does rosebud mean? And it goes when they finally get it at the end, although they don't know they've got, we know, but they don't know it turns out to have something to do with when he was a nine year old kid. You know, child, that was the thing that drove everything he did was from something back there. Same thing with every character. Every story isn't about the external thing that happens. It's about the internal change inside your protagonist or several characters if you've got, you know, I mean, everybody arcs, but primarily the protagonist.

Blake Reichenbach:
And I think that's what really made the methodology and sorry, genius so impactful for me to think about as a writer. And I want to unpack that more in just a moment. But what I'll say about my own reflections as a writer is, you know, I'm still very squarely a speculative fiction writer. That is the genre that made me fall in love with writing and reading in the first place. But what I realized was that even in these external stakes and plots that I was playing with and messing around with, what I realized was that why my character cared and what was moving him forward was not that, you know, these big dramatic things were happening externally, but it was the queer experience of nostalgia and this idea of coming home and how that experience is often a mix of pain and nostalgia and deferred dreams for queer people and this want to be remembered positively that feels like it's not possible. But that feeling is often self imposed. And it's that self imposed fear of rejection that is driving my protagonist forward rather than all the external plots. That's what's pushing him into the plots. And when I realized that, I felt so much more confident about like, oh yeah, of course he's going to do all of this stupid. Of course he's going to make that mistake because he's terrified of this fear that he's imposing on himself because of these experiences he had as a kid and as a teenager that has shaped who he is now as an adult.

Lisa Cron:
Exactly. And again, it goes down to creating those moments that you're talking about, really stories specifically. I mean, writing them on the page as he's experiencing them, not him looking back on them now, but as he's experiencing. Because that's how you get into that kind of depth is literally by again, writing it in the same way that you would, that you would think of writing, you know, from page one going forward. I mean, as I'm fond of saying to writers, it's like stories don't begin on page one. This work, this backstory work isn't like pre writing or research or what you do before you get to the real writing. If you look at most novels, they are between 50 and 60% backstories. I'm fond of saying, I was talking to one writer and she said, I want to see this, you know, like backstory, which comes through internality. Another thing that the writing world will sometimes say, don't tell us what the character's thinking. It's like, oh my God. That is why we are there. If you don't tell us what the characters thinking, you've locked us out and we're not going to care even in iota. But she said, so I want to see that. And she was starting to read Sharp Objects. Gillian Flynn, who wrote Gone Girl, her first book. And she came back the next week and she said, oh my God, I'm halfway through and I pilot 60, that's 6,0%. And I said it the same thing. I say this to everybody. So I said it to a writer I was working with, in fact, one of the guys who's writing speculative fiction, and he said, I want to see this too. So he went and he reread the first Harry Potter, you know, the Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. And he came back a week later and said the same thing. Oh my God, it is 50 to 60% backstory. So this is your story. But that the why exists in the past. You know, as Faulkner so brilliantly said, the past isn't dead, it isn't even past. It is right here with us. And to go to what you were saying about him, self imposed. The only thing I would say is, and I say this because I think that we've been so misled, not just by the writing world, but by psychology and by the right wing. But we don't need to go there with this notion that it's like we are in control and we can make this decisions, and we make decisions about everything, and everything's a level playing field. And if we decide to do something, we're going to do it. If we decide to believe something, consciously meaning we can do it. And the brain doesn't work that way. I mean, the way the brain works is from that last big, you know, growth spurt we had about 100,000 years ago. That was when we got the ability not just to think rationally, as they say, but to need to work together in groups. That is what we need. We need that. The need to belong to a group is as hardwired as is our need for food, air and water. But the other thing that happened then again, as our brain was being, you know, wired last big growth, was that whatever would happen to us when we were children becomes encoded as permanent as that's the way the world is. Which makes sense 50,000 years ago, 100,000, 50,000, somewhere in between. Then when you think about it, there's Dunbar's number. 150, right? Meaning the brain, even now we know, is wired so that you can kind of maybe know some of them, maybe tangentially. 150 people, that is it. But right now that's 150 out of what, like, you know, 8 billion. It's self select. We get to pick those people back then. It's because that's all there were in our whole entire lives. And the world didn't change. I mean, if you were born, you know, 100,000 years ago or 50,000 years ago, the world's exactly the same. There's no buildings, there's no religion, there's no countries, there's no. It's just us. So what was the. A feature meaning? It makes total sense that once you, once you know someone, you're going to know them forever. And once you learn something, that is the way of the world. It's a feature that, that became encoded, is permanent. Now it's a bug because I mean, you know, it's like you've got your family, but that's just your family. There's a billion other families out there that might see things really differently. There's a billion other religions out there, or maybe none where I go, you know, many different countries. But once you identify with something, you tend to think that is the way the world is and all those other people are really, really screwed up. You know, we hope they get a lot of therapy and join us over here in real reality. But that's the way our brains are wired. It's not because we're stubborn or dumb or, you know, just refuse to change. That's how we're wired. So to go back to what brought me into this little diatribe is, you know what you were saying about, you know, self imposed. Yeah. But not consciously. That person's brain trying to protect them. That is what is always our brain trying to protect us. Because here's a fun fact. Did you know that when somebody says something that is the opposite of your belief system, right. They're telling you, you know, like for me it would be right now, I probably shouldn't say this, but I will anyway because you could edit it out. But if someone were to tell me now that how great Trump is, right? I mean, I would. What happens is I would get angry because your brain takes anything which reacts to anything that is, that fights with your belief system, right? We've all got that belief system that we have had since we were small. Anything that argues with that, anything that fights with that, brings up a part of your brain that wants to fight with it. Your brain reacts in the exact same way as it would react if somebody was coming at you with a baseball bat. Because that is our neural wiring. So when you get angry, like when I get angry when someone. I try really hard not to, so I can just talk, but you feel that. I mean, it's one of those great metaphors. Your blood boils. You really feel that you didn't reach over and turn up the thermostat on purpose. Your brain is doing that. I mean, fun fact. When somebody says something that really disagrees with what you believe, blood rushes to your thighs in case you need to make a quick getaway because that's how you've reacted to it. So I think it's easy for us to be hard on ourselves or to be hard on other people who believe things that we don't. What's wrong with them? They're so dumb. I can't believe they're not paying attention. That's not true. In their belief system, what they believe has real deep meaning. And the minute you tell somebody you're wrong, you've lost. It's like nobody's listening to you because that voice comes up and they're ready to argue back anyway. I know that got off the topic of fiction. But, you know, story is everything. I mean, that's why my latest book, Story or Die, really is. Without story, we literally couldn't function. Your brain takes every piece of information you get and transforms it into story. And the story it's telling is. Because this is how we internalize and figure out the meaning of everything, which is everything that happens out there in the world, we go, okay, specifically, if we're going to pay attention to it, right? Because most of the stuff we don't, because it's not going to affect us, we go, specifically, how will this affect me? What will the consequences of it be? Boots on the ground in my life, given my agenda, my belief system, is this going to help me or is this going to hurt me? Is this going to keep me safe or is it a danger? Everything gets spun into that story. So even when you give someone, I'll just give them the facts and we'll make decisions on the facts, it doesn't stay that it gets turned into story. Because that is how we know what things mean to us. Us meaning how we feel about it. Emotion, all Emotion does is it transmits meaning. It lets us know what things mean to us. That is what emotion is. It's not some amorphous thing that just tries to, you know, subvert reason. Anyway, sorry, I went on and on and on.

Blake Reichenbach:
No, I think that is a. I feel like we could just make this a therapy session for me and for my protagonist. But also, you know, I think for writers, that's. That's just, like, really practical advice to keep in mind. For anyone, it's practical advice to keep in mind, but especially for writers, because one of the things I've noticed just doing, like, you know, critique groups and workshops with folks is there's often a point in a story where writers want to make their characters, I think, a little bit too rational and a little bit too logical. And it's like, okay, the plot's getting tricky, so let's just discuss things, have a very rational conversation, find a very practical solution. And on the one hand, it's like, I see why, as the writer, you're ready to get to the resolution. But also, these characters that have proven themselves to, like, maybe not be the smartest people probably aren't going to all step back, align, have a rational conversation, and unify behind a single solution at this, like, you know, peak pivot point. But I do want to talk a little bit about, you know, you've mentioned the work that goes into story and all of the things that writers should be exploring with story before they sit down to actually start writing and actually. Or start writing their manuscript. And as you were saying that there's one of your quotes from early on in Story Genius that I absolutely adore, and I want to see if I can find it really quickly. I don't want to spend too much time looking for it. But it's something to that very effect where you say, without the past to anchor the present, everything will be neutral and nothing will add up. And so it will come across as random to the reader. And you obviously build on much more than that concept in Story Genius. But within Story Genius, one of the things that I both loved and found super challenging. I'll be transparent with you. This book put me through the wringer, was that it's not the kind of book that you just kind of do what I normally do and I read, which is sit in bed and just go page by page, because you break up every chapter with a what to do. And it's an exercise that starts putting together the building blocks of story. And when I was first going through it, that first Night, sitting in bed. My dog was in his crate. I was comfortable. I was sleepy. I didn't have a notebook and pen around. And I got to those exercises, and I was like, lisa Crog, what are you doing? I'm ready for sleep. I have to go find a notebook. I have to go find a pen. But in doing a lot of that work and starting to get these pieces of the puzzle down on paper and out of my head, I found that then when it became time for me to start drafting, I was able to move much quicker. And, you know, at Howdy Curiosity, we really focus on our community of busy professionals who are, you know, writers in their free time. So people who are parents and workers who maybe just have that hour after the kids are in bed or before anyone else gets up. And I'm curious if you can talk a little bit about how frontloading this work and like, it's not a small amount of work, you don't skimp on the homework. But I'm curious if you can just talk about how doing that work up front enables that precious, precious writing time to be more productive.

Lisa Cron:
Oh, yeah. I mean, let me put you this way. Without it, you will. I guarantee you will write something that's nothing but a bunch of things that happen, and it will go nowhere, because this is the writing. I mean, that is really the key thing. And then I will answer. Answer the question even in more depth. But this is the work. I mean, that it's not pre writing. It isn't. And I know no matter how many times I say it, and this happens across the board with everyone and just. I mean, almost every writer I work with, and I work with a lot, I think 40 writers at this moment are professionals. I mean, everybody has a job, you know, or a lot of kids, you know, one or the other, and often both, let's face it, you know, so nobody has. There's very few. Think of maybe one person I work with who has all data, right? Everybody else is like that. This is the work. I mean, that's what. When I say backstory is 60% of the novel. This is the novel. It's just. You haven't gotten to page one. But otherwise, you've got nothing to write about. It's just a bunch of things that happen because you know what? You've got the before, you've got the this versus that. As I like to say, this is what they come in, believing and wanting. This is what's really true. This is how they see the world again, that worldview that they are using to make sense of things. And not just things in general, but really what you're writing about, what that. What I like to call the misbelief, meaning. And all of us have them. A misbelief meaning something that we learn early in life, like I was talking about before, because we learn how the world works early in life. Meaning. By the time you're, I don't know, 12 maybe, that's. You're pretty much set. That's why I do not. I will never understand why in this country, or maybe worldwide, but certainly here, we don't respect teachers. Teachers are so important. They've got these little kids. How they're going to see the world is really definitely, permanently, you know, written in while they're small. So without this work, you've got somebody who can only react in the way that maybe a person would. I mean, that's why we talked before about pantsing. I think plotting is just as bad. It's something I would change in my first book Story Genius. I would come away from the way I talked about it, because the notion of having an outline or plotting all the way through is just as bad. Because if you plot all the way through, you got this happens, that happens, that happens, that happens. And then you've got a character. And if you haven't done this work that we're talking about now, they're like a rat dropped in a maze. And they've got to make these external things happen or the plot will fall apart. It sort of sounds like what you were saying before about your character without the other. It's like suddenly they've got to do this stuff that maybe no person would do or that certainly the guy who did that thing in chapter five would never do this thing that he's got to do in chapter 11, or else everything's going to fall apart. And there's no there there. We don't come for what happened. We come for what's beneath the surface. And that inherently comes from the past. And just to say it is hard. What I'm talking about is hard. It's not easy. It's not easy. Right. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it and be successful. The problem that we have in this world right now is that we want everything to be easy. You know, like nanowrimo, which. I'd like to punch that guy in the face. I mean, can you write 50,000 words in 30 days? Sure. Will those words have meaning? Sure. In the dictionary, but there's no way. I mean, again, it's putting. It's like as if you've got that many words on the page, you've written a story. You haven't. You've just written 50,000 words. It doesn't work that way. It's hard. And as I'm fond of saying to writers, the answer to any story problem you've got lies in your story's backyard, meaning the story specific backstory that every character comes into the story. We think about your own life. You know, I mean, think about if you were going to write like a memoir, but it was going to start from tomorrow until what would it be? May 6th of 2025, right? Like, if you were going to write what you thought that was going to be now, you wouldn't just go, I will wake up in the morning and I don't know. You've got all the balls in play right now. You've got all the things you think are important. You've got why you think they're important. You've got why things matter. You've got that dog in the crate, is he bar? You know, I mean, all of the different things that's going on and all of those people who you're dealing with, they have things. And you've got, you know, wherever you are in whatever it is that you want to do, whatever your agenda is, is there. And whatever misbelief you've got, because we all have them. I've worked with so many writers who went, I was looking for my protagonist misbelief, and I found my own. We've all got that without the past. I mean, again, it comes back to brain science. You know, the brain, as I said before, is a recording device. The purpose of the brain is to record past memories in order to be defeat the future. The brain is a prediction machine. You can't make a prediction without having something to base it on. And that comes from the past. But it means literally writing it out and then it is on the page again. Take whatever novel you're reading, take out a highlighter and highlight everything that's there. We're not talking about work. That is, you know that this doesn't count. And it only counts when you're. Once you're like, on page one. It doesn't work that way. And it has to be done in chronological order. You can't start writing and then figure out the backstory because guess what? Whatever backstory you're figuring out now on, you know, page 50, well, that happened before they got to page one. So it would have affected everything that they're doing. I mean, this is just the way to come at it. I mean, I mean, it's the way we humans come at it. So, yeah, it's a lot of work. It is a lot. And it's hard. I don't say it's easy, it's fucking hard. And by the way, I don't trust people who don't swear. Like, I do not trust people who don't swear. My favorite word is fuck. I totally admit it. You know, I can't believe I've refrained for this long, but these days I'm like, I'm old. I can say fuck, I don't care what people think. But yeah, I mean, it is hard. You know, one of my favorite sayings is a military saying, actually, which is, you gotta love the sock because it's going to be hard and you got to force yourself to do it. You're going to write stuff and you don't really like it, or it didn't work, or you wrote a whole bunch of pages and now you realize that you've moved past it. Yeah, I mean, that's going to happen. If you think it's easy, you know, then fine, then you're writing for yourself and that is totally fine. But that's not going to pull other people in. Writing is communication. It's having something to say. It's knowing what your point is from the very beginning so you understand where you're going. Otherwise, you know, otherwise what is the point? I mean, writers are the most powerful people on the planet. Story is the most powerful communication tool.

Blake Reichenbach:
So since we are coming up on time and I want to take us home, I guess I can sum up everything you're saying by saying that you strongly endorse the five part opening, rising, action, climax, falling action, conclusion model. That is a joke. Please don't punch me in the face like the NaNoWriMo guy.

Lisa Cron:
One second. Don't read story structure books. If I give one, please don't read them because they're a lie. It's not story structure, it's plot structure. I have worked with so many people where it's like, and now this other thing. That's where then you got the grab bag of big things to happen. I mean, oh my God, you think the people like, I mean, starting with Joseph Campbell. Oh my God, so such a misogynist. What you think the people who wrote those myths went, wait, wait, I can't do it. I got to get the metric of oh, now this has to happen. I mean, it just doesn't work that way. It just doesn't work that way well.

Blake Reichenbach:
So my in earnest wrap up is what I'll say is one of my all time favorite, not one of my all time favorite book is My Antonia by Willa Cather, which comes as a surprise to some people with me being like a speculative fiction writer. And you know, Willa Cather, she was writing early 1900s, writing what was considered regional fiction early in the modernist era. But I think that what my Antonia does so well is that story, right? It is a man reflecting on essentially how he became himself. And so when you talk about the past and the backstory being, you know, 50 to 60% of the story in my Antonia, it's 100% of the story. And as, as you were describing that earlier, about 50 to 60% of the story, that's what clicked for me is like my Antonia, that is the story is. It is a man reflecting on his life and specifically how this, this one particular central figure played a role in his life. But what that brings me to is I've got a two part question for you to take us home. Which is first, what is one book other than one that you've written? And this can be either fiction or non fiction and for any reason that you think everyone should read at least once. And then the second part of the question is, how can folks learn more about you and your work?

Lisa Cron:
Okay, the first one, I mean, that's hard because there's so many books I deeply love and it's hard to say, but I'll tell you the one that I often will tell writers to read, to sort of see the way that we go into someone's head. And that is Everything I Never Told you by Celeste Ng. It's her first book, I think, by far the best one actually. And I think that's a really great one because we're pulled in, there's lots of backstory. Many of the characters have what I like to call an origin story. Meaning where did this misbelief come from? A misbelief being something that comes on early in life and is about what we need to do in order to get our needs met. Not a misbelief like, you know, I thought the world was flat and you're never going to believe it's actually round. It's something deeper than. So I think that's the one that comes to mind. You know, I also love. I just. If you don't, if you don't mind my saying, Lonesome Dove, I think is a fabulous Book doesn't follow any anything, you know, like you with. With. With my Antonio, I tried to read it once and sort of couldn't. And then my agent said it was her favorite book, and she tried to read it once and couldn't. And then it's like 800 pages. And she said. And then when I read it, she said I loved it so much that when I got to page 400, I started to feel depressed because I knew I was on the downside. There's something. But even with that, it still goes to all this, even to the very end, where you really get about somebody who can't do the thing that would. That really would matter to him. And we really understand why. Anyway. But the easier of the two and the much shorter of the two is Everything I never told you by Celeste Ng. It's a fabulous book.

Lisa Cron:
Amazing.

Lisa Cron:
And then for me, just my website, I have left all social media. I'm done with social media. Once Twitter became X, I was like, I am so deeply out of here. It was the only one I liked. I loved it when it was Twitter. Now it's like, so, yeah, just my website, it's just wired for story dot com. If you put my name in, I'll come up in a bunch of places. I'm easy to find. I'm very easy to find.

Blake Reichenbach:
Amazing. Well, this conversation has been so much fun. I have had an absolute blast. And, you know, as I mentioned before, I'm going to be hosting a book club all about story genius. And I feel like I'm going to be coming back to this conversation and rewatching this recording just like on repeat leading up to this book club.

Lisa Cron:
Yay. Well, this was really fun. Like I told you, I. I love talking story. And I should have warned you that, as you've seen, I can go on and on and on and on. So I usually give that warning and I forgot to this time. But you now are very well aware of that fact.

Lisa Cron:
It is absolutely welcome, and I think it has been absolutely perfect for this conversation.

Lisa Cron:
Yay. Well, thank you so much.

Blake Reichenbach:
Absolutely. So what do you think? How are you feeling? Do you feel like writing? Do you feel like diving into the science of story? Do you feel like unpacking what makes people feel and think the way that they feel and think? Honestly, I feel like I could have kept that conversation going for another 30 minutes and clearly Lisa could have kept talking about story for at least another 30 minutes. She was on a roll. Her energy so dynamic, so electric. I had so much fun with that conversation. I will put a link to Lisa's website as well as of course Story Genius and her other books in the show notes of this episode. If you have any questions or feedback, feel free to reach out to me@blakeowdycuriosity.com and don't forget that if you are looking to connect with other writers who are also looking to tell some pretty damn sweet stories, you can head over to community.howdy curiosity.com that's community. Howdy curiosity.com that is my pet project. That is where I am trying to build a cult. Excuse me, I did not say cult. That's where I'm trying to build a army. Excuse me, I didn't say army. That is where I am trying to build a coven of writers, a community, a collective of writers to support each other, maintain accountability and help each other maintain momentum. You know, I'll give a quick pitch of it and just say, hey, if you don't love NaNoWriMo because one month out of 12 isn't a great balance for time you spend prioritizing your creative work or you hate all of the really sketchy stuff going on with the NaNoWriMo organization, consider howdy Curiosity your alternative. We are year round, baby. We focus on the before, right? All those amazing story elements that Lisa Kron loves to talk about. We focus on the after. How you go about building your brand, establishing your reputation as a writer, connecting with folks in the industry, and most importantly, we will help you maintain accountability and momentum. 12 months out of the year. All you have to do is sign up for free@community howdycuriosity.com it is definitely not a cult. It is just a community for riders. All right, we are finally getting some beautiful cool weather in Kentucky, so I am going to go sit outside and sniff the air. It is finally starting to feel like that kind of weather, you know. So that's the vibe I'm going for today. Have a good one, y'all.